The Unbalanced Equalizer...

[GREENERRRR]

i know u guys are goonna think that i thought this idea up because of the BW talk going on - but the truth is it came to me in a game with falconfansince81 2 days ago - in a post game discussion...

I am now leaning to the idea that the Hit-Stick is taking away from the SIM football aspect of the game - How many times have you seen a POWER RB or a BRUISING TE knocked backwards by a smaller and weaker CB or Safety? (or even worse fumble that is scooped and scored?)... without a doubt there is a spot for BIG HITS in the game - and the Hit STICk is a great tool to bring this aspect to the game...

HOWEVER - the problem is that the these BIG HITS (via the HIT STICK occur way to often in a game)... and to the defense of players like falconfan who use it often- thats just how they tackle - EVERY-TIME - so its become an instinctive habbit (ingrained for mutiple madden seasons)... The Hit Stick has taken part of SIM football away - How many "Ronnie Lott style hits" are there in a typical game - 2 maybe 3 - but guys are using the hit-stick 15-20 times a game - some virtually on every run play... THIS IS OUT OF HAND and takes away form SIM style football - the problem is that a Big Hit (in real football) - can be a high risk - High reward situation - High Reward is captured nicely in Madden (with the fumbles it causes and injuries) where Madden fails miserably is the High Risk part of this equation - there is lil IF ANY penalty or downside to Hit Sticking - Therefore players are motivated to Hit-Stick everyplay (THEY HAVING NOTHING TO LOSE!)...
my Suggestion is to Limit the number of times a `Hit Stick`can be used in a game... IDK what the number of Hit Sticks per game should be... (the number i had in my head was - but we should discuss..

I believe limiting the number of times the Hit Stick can be used - can make the game closer to SIM football... And i ask those players who Hit Stick their opponents every tackle - What would your game look like if u were allowed 2 Hit Stick uses per quarter... wouldnt it be interesting and a new strategy component to consider when and when not to use the Hit stick??? R u going to use it on the FB who is gaining 2 yards if u hit-stick him or 3 yards if u dont??? or are u gonna use it when Norwood runs a toss play to your weak takling CB`s side??? the choice will be yours to make - this could bring a entire new level of strategy to the game

give this suggestion some thought - and btw if we implement this rule or any rule - it will be universal - THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYER SPECIFIC RULES...

lastly - i want to confimrm i didnt boot QBxKILLA for being too good - officially he was booted for breakn the 20% rule - (confirmed with video evidence - which he lied about and was caught lieing)... the other mitigating circumstances was his unsportsmanlike play (he ran the score up on weaker players unnecessarily - he is the origanal and the the person who motivated me to coin the term `STAT SLUT` - yes! this is my terminolgy (u should have saw how mad he was the 1st time i called him that!)

[Ryno341]

As you know I'm all for promoting sim play and all, but this may be a little too much. I just feel like there's no way to realistically hold players accountable for this.

I would also add the the highlight stick on the offense can make up for this B.S. in an instance. I won't lie, Frank Gore has broken a 3 man tackle or two in his days by me pressing up on the highlight stick. Completely unrealistic, but I think they do a nice job of having B.S. things on both sides of the ball.

Fumbles are frustrating yes, but if you watched any of the playoffs this year you should know that they're an every game occurrence these days (i.e. A.P.'s five in a game) The old Madden seemed to rarely have fumbles. I think they're up in the fumble department was a good thing in the realistic department. Now as for Antonio Gates getting jacked up by an 180 lb CB....yeaaaa that's not realistic. I agree. But the hit stick is a completely legal tool if you ask me. It's built in the game to do that. There's no manipulation by the players itself. You know what I'm saying?

[GREENERRRR]

u r kindas missing the point - the proposed rule is put into place NOT BECAUSE OF GUYS CHEATING - but to improve poor madden programming - the hit stick is tooo effective vs strong/power runners and makes the feabliest and smallest players turn into Lawerence Taylor crumpling QB's legs...

[gad__Warrior]

greenerrrr, I understand your point but I agree with Ryno there is little that can be done and honestly should be done about it. I'm not one to overuse the hit stick. In fact I find it incredibly irritating when my guy is making a break down the sideline and when he goes to make a cut the defender miraculously changes his tackling angles and lays a big hit on my runner, often causing a fumble. But it happens. its part of the game. One thing I like about these league is that the vast majority of the owners are legit players. But everyone has their "gimmicks". That one or two things that is the foundation to their playing strategy. I played a guy last night who was completely reliant on having speed at every position regardless of skill. His passing game incorporated nothing but crosses routes knowing that eventually his receiver will out run his defender. His running game was tosses and sweeps hoping to out flank the DEs and LBs and his defense was heavy with nickle and dime sets. That was his "gimmick". Hit stick tackling is a gimmick. Albeit, an annoying one, but a gimmick nonetheless. Its actually easy to beat. I rarely have a problem going against guys who do it. If I guy wants to do it, let him. As with everything that goes into playing a sim-like game, its all about the spirit of the game and not exploiting madden's flaws

[GREENERRRR]

I ty for your response - and i appreaciate your particpation in the discussion - this is the kind of conversation that will make our lgs better...

My question is a simple 1 to you - What is the "counter" u mention to the Hit-Stick? - My experience is that the Defensive hit stick is more effective 99.9% of the time than the so called "truck stick" by the ball-carrier (regardeless of the size and strength of the 2 player colliding) - my point is Momentum (speed times size) should be a more determining factor in such collisions and it is totally disregarded when the hit stick is used...

As far as implementation of my proposed rule - i see it being simplier than most - allow a certain # of Hit Sticks per quarter - replays are game time stamped -so this is aspect is easily inforcible... Nonetheless my experience has been - once we make a rule - and players are aware of it - THEY GENERALY OBEY IT - (sure their are few guys that are an exception to this generalization) - this is another great illustration of the quality of players we have in the Network - the emmbership follows rules regardless if the personally agree/disagree with them...

[falconfansince81]

i'll be honest when i say i simply can't follow this rule. i just can't, and won't pretend to be able to. i hit stick low with defensive backs, and high with lb's and force my fair share of turnovers which plays into my gameplan of winning with defense. if we were to nurse the league along to account for the bad programming and flaws in madden you might as well eliminate or limit use of:

1. user catching (which i do a lot under safeties)
2. formation subs
3. line protection
4. screen passes
5. defensive audibles
6. defensive shifting
7. special moves
8. playactions
9. passes to the flats
10. motioning vs man coverage

all these things can create ai exploits in some way, but thats the way the VIDEO GAME was programmed...this isn't a well constructed game like 2k5 so you just have to find a way to adapt sometimes, there ARE ways to stop anyone.

my point is, i'm not adjusting my game and easing up on the hit stick, i've seen makino break 6 man tackles cause i tried to 'wrap up' when i should've taken his head off. if you have to boot me then boot me, i'm not changing the way i play...i know i'm a fair and legit player and if i have to play somewhere else i guess thats what i'll do.

[GREENERRRR]

I want to re-iterate that i have the uptmost respect for you... there is no doubt - FALCONFANSINCE81 IS A LEADER OF THE HIGHEST PERCENTILE - and our network is better with you in it -

this string is not direct at any1 specifically - its a simple diuscussion - with the hopes of getting input form players with varying opinions and perspective - the hoe is to ultimately lead to a better SIM network of franchise...

U have mnentioned numerous other issues in the game that should be fixed to make the game closer to true SIM football - i ask people not to be intimidated by the size of that list - LETS DISCUSS THEM ALL! there maybe an EZ fix that could be implemented immediately that somebody has in their head - but is a lil shy about discussing... PLS UNDERSTAND - THIS IS BRAINSTORMING SESSION - sure guys will makle points and guys will make counter points to those arguements (dont inturpret some1 that has an oppisite opinion as u who counters your arguement as being a personal attack on you)- i am trying to encourage broad and opinionated discussions that the ultimate goal of making our Network better and stronger...

SO LETS HEAR ALL THESE THOUGHTS - currently i jhave 3 players arguing against my idea (nobody for it1 LOL! - not a good start for me!)

[falconfansince81]

well thanks greener for the kind words, i know all our games are close but i always manage to pull it out in the end and thats GOT to be frustrating (i know all about having that one guy who you just can't put away - jmo cough cough) but i simply cannot limit myself to only a few hitsticks per game since the tackling system is flawed as is, and i have adapted this style as a standard of tackling.

here is my main argument and opinion; madden is far from sim in many aspects...but the hitsticking option is there for everyone and they can choose to use it or not. its not like some exploit glitch that you had to figure out (the pump fake glitch from 09, and i now assume from BW its there this year just don't care to try it). there is nothing about the hitstick that makes its exclusive to cheesers as ANYONE can do it relatively easily. now if we were discussing nano's and rocket catching i'd side with the rule against it, but this is an easily accessible option in the game that is available for everyone and since regular tackles have been nerfed even more this year i find the most sure way to tackle my opponent.

[djgamer134]

I'm against it. You can always just cover the ball up OR user juke and make the user look silly. But things are getting oout of hand.

[ScHlOeR87]

yeah im against it to... thats 5 against it and still not 1 that agrees with it lol dont think this rule is going to pass!

[Deathwish22]

I gotta agree...as much as I hate the hit stick...there is no possible way to make a rule to not allow it...or rule that you can only use it a certain number of times per game.

Here is what we need to do. Boywonder is playing to manipulate the AI...it's obvious now...and even more obvious that J-MO pointed it out...the problem isn't the hit stick...it's Boywonder.

[Mjkight]

problem is not the hitstick...there is also great risk in using hitstick inless your boywonder.

totally against it

[tomer629]

Greener we have had our issues, but I truly respect you and all you do for this league. I know we have had some heated conversations recently about some aspects of my defense, but we will settle that eventually. That is a totally different subject that we will deal with at another time.

I have to disagree with your take on hitsticking for several reasons.


There IS a penalty for hitsticking, in fact several penaltys (or risks you could call them )

1. Have you ever whiffed on a hitstick?? Your guy flails around and runs 8 yards upfield with his head down, and is uncontrollable the entire time. Huge penalty. if you whiff on a hitstick on a sweep you can expect a long TD run to follow. Yes most good players can usually avoid this but I for one still do it several times a game, and when it happens it usually results in a huge play for the offense.

2. hitstick someone high, and they oftentimes will just bounce off and keep on running.
3 hitstick someone low, and they will very often auto-hurdle the defender, with no input from the player (great RBs will do this much more often, and hey doesnt that make a lot of sense? Great running backs SHOULD be better at avoiding big hits)

I think we can all agree that the madden programmers suck balls. This game is a joke. If it werent the ONLY pro football video game nobody would play it. Monopolies suck guys, there is a reason there are laws against monopolies, and madden is a perfect example. I still have no idea why its allowed. The government is just to lazy to look into a video game monopoly, they have bigger fish to fry.

So madden is not perfect, and never will be, but we do our best to make a competitive league, and try to cut down on BS any way we can. But limiting the use of the hitstick is taking it too far. As someone else mentioned, we might as well say you cant juke, stiffarm, spin, user catch, truckstick, etc...

Im sure we all hate that break-tackle animation where the guy is wrapped up by 5-6 defenders, but somehow his legs keep churning and all the sudden all the defenders fall off him and he runs down the field for a TD. That is way bigger BS than any hitstick fumble. If you dont hitstick thats the kind of BS that can happen. But dont forget that there are several risks involved with hitsticking.

[tomer629]

and for the record I think these discussions are great for the league

I am not one of the people that is against adding any rule, If I thought a rule would help the network I would be all for it, but I have to disagree in this case.

[Ryno341]

EA doesn't have a monopoly on football. Any companies allowed to make a football game. It's just the exclusive rights to the NFL's likeness that EA has. That is completely legal since the NFL owns all rights to this, and may give them to anyone they like. Smaller companies know that this is a key in attracting a profitable market when making a football video game. This is why we don't see any other competition.

I kind of get tired of the whole Madden isn't a great football game. I think it's pretty damn good for being a simulation. EVERY game WILL have it's flaws. I don't think anyone can make a perfect simulation yet.

However, I would like the NFL to allow other companies to use their likeness, because this would create competition, which would make a better product, and benefit us (the consumers).

[falconfansince81]

i don't think madden 10 is a great football game, in fact its still WAY behind the gameplay quality of 2k5 and even madden 05 and 04. soon as they made the jump to next gen its like it all fell apart and they just keep laying pretty graphics over a broken animation system with VERY limited user control. they've stripped down features that used to be in the game, and between the dull commentary and horrible presentation the game is not just boring, but mind numbing to play vs the cpu...which takes the fun out of any offline experience (not to mention the broke the stats engine).

i can deal with the new innovative features since 05 like morphing, time-shifting, magnet blocking, suction tackles, horrible ai, broken flat zones (half the time), placebo ratings aside from speed, failed line calls, tron jogging, skip-to-my-lou hemorrhoid running, challenge d/c's, broken blocking, broken offensive line blocking, broken downfield blocking...etc etc

so to make the most out of this mess of shitty programming with a general lazy work ethic put into our glorified yearly roster update, taking one of the few things in this game that actually works could be a big mistake.

[Scrillstar]

Im kinda with falconfan... I am too used to the hit-stick by now that I would probably suffer for a while not using it...

I have countered the hitstick many time using the highlight stick it is all about timing... however it does seem to work more in favor of the defense... you just have to know not to be using speed burst while using the highlight stick

Also you can use R1 to hold on tight to the ball to reduce your fumbling chance

However I think we can impose a rule to maybe do away with it on kick off returns and other situations.

I hate when I have my fast little guy returning KOs (who usually dont have the greatest carry rating) and they fumble it like 25% of the time on KOs which is way too high.

On a side not, am i the only one that has clearly won a fight for the fumble but still lost the ball... this has happened MANY times

[Scrillstar]

Also I wanted to add that literally about 75% of the time even when I use Patrick Willis(example) to tackle a 2nd or 3rd string RB using a regular run into the player or press square tackle they break it.... they also seem to break it with ease so at least with the hit stick i can be sure I have a more sure tackle... sometimes the fumbling is excessive but just wrap up the ball or run outta bounds

[falconfansince81]

i've seen peyton manning hip toss ware before, and its reasons like this i feel the need to hit stick

[GREENERRRR]

all u guys are totally mnssing my point and nobody has yet to address it...

it is totally unrealistic to have my BAM BAM Morris clone (Tank Lockwood) 255 pounds, 99 truck , 98 stiff arm and 99 carry - being knocked flat on his can by a 170 pound CB - (idc what his Hit power is) - if u use the HitStick and i use the truck stick (which i shouldnt have too - but for arguements sake i will) - 9 time out of 10 Lockwood will go down like a tonne of bricks! FLAT on HIS BACK! When in fact he should run over the CB 7 times out of 10- this is beyond stupidity - and if you argue that this is acceptable - (and truely believe it) - i have some Ocean front property in Nunavit with a Glacier view that we need to talk about - i can get it real cheap for u!

[Ryno341]

i have actually gotten good at highlight sticking hit sticks, as i'm sure you are too. its funny when a guy repeatably tries to hit stick you with 3 guys in a row, and frank gore just slips every one of them and goes in for the score.

i honestly feel like most of the time i get hit sticked for a fumble, or hit stick someone for a fumble its usually in the process of me or them trying to make the play into more than it is. the secret is be patient and don't make yourself so vulnerable to the hit stick. know when to go down or go out of bounds.

the big point is that you remember the ones that cause fumbles because they're more memorable in a game. you're going to forget the tackle you broke for an extra 5 yard gain, no matter how many times you do it in a game.

i really think that the hit stick and highlight stick are more equal in this game than ever. i've busted three man tackles with gore for a 80 yard TD plenty of times, and i'm sure you have too with AP or whoever that 99 truck guy is you have.

and trust me you benefit from the hit stick just as much as any person in the league, so really why complain about it?

[GREENERRRR]

If u have a 99 trucking guy - he shoud break tackles! nobody has a legit arguement about the 170pond DB knocking tANK lOCKWOOD - 240 POunds (99 truckn - Bam BAm Morris clone) - consistantly knocking this brusing monster on his ass! its a joke and is a total flaw - regardless of his hit poer LOL - its simple physics - his momentum (velocity times weight) should have him run over this player 90% of the time - this doesnt hapopen when the hit stick is used

[Ryno341]

ever see Maurice Jones-Drew truck the shit out of Shawn Merriman on that block? Who says it's not possible!?

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